Laurence Turner MP: speeches

Speeches

• 3 Dec 2024 · Employment Rights Bill (Fifth sitting) · Hansard source

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  The Workers (Predictable Terms and Conditions) Act 2023 sets the reference period at 12 weeks. The hon. Gentleman says that 18 months is probably an artificially high number. Does he think that the 12-week reference period, which the previous Government supported just 12 months ago, is in about the right place?

• 3 Dec 2024 · Employment Rights Bill (Fifth sitting) · Hansard source

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  My personal view is that they should not be accepted, but the hon. Gentleman surely knows that he should not seek an opinion on the party position from a Back-Bench MP. My second point is on the sectors that would be affected by the amendments. My hon. Friend the Member for Gloucester made an incredibly powerful contribution, which we all thank him for having the courage to make, about his experience in the hospitality industry. I want to talk about the social care sector, and it is important to remember that one in three workers on a zero-hours contract in England works in adult social care. In a former life, I spent many hours going through the corporate structures of social care employers, and their accounts and other filings. It is commonplace for an individual care home to be constituted as an individual employer, even though they ultimately all share a common ownership structure, so what appears to be a small business is often not one. During the pandemic, there was a complex interaction between care workers on zero-hours contracts and a lack of access to statutory sick pay, and there was a direct link between SSP coverage and high rates of infection, and indeed deaths, in those homes among both workers and residents. The measures in the Bill will make real progress. Going back to points that have been covered already, I fear that this group of amendments will have serious unintended and perverse consequences, and I encourage Members to vote against it.

• 3 Dec 2024 · Employment Rights Bill (Fifth sitting) · Hansard source

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  I rise to make two brief points that have not been made in this debate. The first, which is narrow, is that we already have a legal definition of SMEs under the Companies Acts 2006, which defines the upper limit as 249 employees. I acknowledge that the previous Government’s position was to extend to new regulations the higher thresholds that those on the shadow Front Bench are seeking to put forward through these amendments. I am happy to be corrected, but I do not believe that any legislation incorporating that position was subsequently carried. There is a serious point here. These may be probing amendments—we will find out shortly—but this process is not the right point to introduce a new legal definition.

• 3 Dec 2024 · Employment Rights Bill (Fifth sitting) · Hansard source

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  I am grateful to the shadow Minister for giving way; he has been generous with his time. On the point about perverse incentives, does he accept that if this group of amendments were in force, it would create a perverse incentive for the creation of umbrella companies and other forms of employment law evasion? If we are to enforce the provisions that we seek to pass in the Bill, instead of introducing a new dimension to employment law through the exemptions that he proposes, the only way to do that is to have a consistent approach across employers.

• 3 Dec 2024 · Employment Rights Bill (Fifth sitting) · Hansard source

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  I again draw attention to my declarations in the Register of Members’ Financial Interests and my membership of the Unite and GMB trade unions. Does the shadow Minister recognise that the prominent case of the Presidents Club harassment, which was exposed by the Financial Times some years ago, did apply to an employer that employed fewer than 500 people? That was specifically in respect of sexual harassment. The House has accepted the principle that measures should be put in place to prevent third-party sexual harassment; it did so last year, through the private Member’s Bill process—including for the SMEs that the shadow Minister refers to. The most famous case on third-party harassment was the Bernard Manning case in 1996, which covered racial harassment; and recent tribunal judgments, including in 2019, have exposed gaps in the law. So does the shadow Minister recognise that there are important proven cases of third-party harassment that go beyond the current legal framework, that would be remedied by the provisions in the Bill?

• 3 Dec 2024 · Employment Rights Bill (Fifth sitting) · Hansard source

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  The Minister spoke about the insecurity that can hang over agency workers, and said that their employment situation does not always represent genuine flexibility. As someone who has been an agency worker, I can certainly identify with what he says. On the point around regulations, does he agree that this is a long-standing precedent in employment law, dating all the way back to the Employment Agencies Act 1973, under which the current agency workers regulations are made? In terms of powers, this is nothing new.

• 28 Nov 2024 · Employment Rights Bill (Fourth sitting) · Hansard source

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  Q I apologise to the panel for returning to an earlier dispute in this quite disjointed way, but just for the record, earlier this week one of our witnesses, Paul Nowak, said: “I do not think there is a direct link; you do not pass a piece of legislation and trade union membership and collective bargaining go up”. –– [ Official Report, Employment Rights Public Bill Committee, 26 November 2024; c. 67.] Another witness, Mick Lynch, said that personally he hoped to see 50% collective bargaining coverage. That is compared with 39% now. It seems like thin margarine to me and certainly not a unionisation of the economy, but there we go. My question to the panel is the same question that was put to employers’ federations earlier this week. We all understand the points that you have made, but are there specific measures in the Bill that you welcome? Michael Lorimer: No. Luke Johnson: No. Michael Lorimer: I am not trying to be contrarian, but I think Luke’s point is a very good one. There are 150 pages and 28 new measures, or whatever it is. Apart from anything else, it is an administrative burden. I welcome the White Paper hugely, but there is nothing in here that I am excited about. Luke Johnson: I will give you an example of one very specific issue that may arise that I do not think has been thought through properly, and its unintended consequences. There is an adjustment to collective redundancy rights. This would, I guess, normally apply in a business that is going through a very severe restructuring and possibly an insolvency. What happens in an insolvency is that a buyer can keep that business alive and keep a chunk of the jobs, at least, from going by buying it out of administration. The one thing that goes through an administration is the TUPE rights of the employees. If you are only buying a small portion of that business, normally you can carve out only TUPE rights relating to the staff of the bit you are buying—let us say that it is several divisions, departments or whatever. As I understand it, this will tighten that, as proposed, such that almost any buyer of any part of that business will face the TUPE rights of the whole workforce. The unintended consequence will therefore be that parts of a business that were good and that could survive will not; they will be shut. The whole thing will be shut and all the jobs will be lost. I do not think that whoever drew up that part of the legislation has fully thought it through, because it is in society’s interest that where businesses can be saved and rescued—I have been involved on both sides in those situations—they should be. It is always a great deal easier in certain respects to save a business that has failed because it had too much debt, or some other problem, than to start all over again from scratch. Michael Lorimer: Perhaps I should add that there are aspects of this that I am quite neutral or comfortable about. There are some things around bereavement, and so on, that are all good. I emphasise that my focus today is around the day one stuff and flexibility.

• 28 Nov 2024 · Employment Rights Bill (Fourth sitting) · Hansard source

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  Q Dr Stephenson, I would like to ask about outsourcing and outsourced workers, an often-overlooked part of the labour market. We know that women and people from ethnic minority backgrounds are more likely to be outsourced. What is your opinion of the clauses in this Bill in relation to the extension of gender pay gap reporting to outsourced workers and the restoration of the two-tier code for outsourced workers from the public sector? Dr Stephenson: I can speak to the first question; the second is probably beyond my area of knowledge. We welcome the move to include outsourced workers in gender pay gap reporting. We think that this has been a gap. We are very conscious that you will quite often see that the lowest paid workers, particularly in the public sector, are now outsourced. One of the reasons why people say pay in the public sector is better on average than in the private sector is not because it is better job for job; it is because the lowest paid workers have been moved out of the public sector and into the private sector, and a large proportion of those workers are women, for example cleaners, canteen cooks and so on. Counting those workers in is really important, as is anything that encourages greater insourcing of workers. What we have seen with outsourcing is that the efficiencies and so-called savings have been largely at the expense of the pay and conditions of those outsourced workers.

• 28 Nov 2024 · Employment Rights Bill (Fourth sitting) · Hansard source

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  Q Minister, over the past two years, we have seen some of the highest levels of industrial action since the 1980s. Could you tell us what effect you think the Bill will have on the conduct of industrial relations? Justin Madders: I hope it will have a positive impact on industrial relations. The way strike action spiralled in recent years was probably the result of frustration with a Government who were not listening to the voice of workers, were not prepared to address their concerns, and were actively moving to frustrate legitimate acts by trade unions to take industrial action. It is about the culture and the level of engagement, as much as it is about the legislation, but there is no suggestion, as far as I can see, that the Bill will massively increase strike action, as some people might have suggested.

• 28 Nov 2024 · Employment Rights Bill (Third sitting) · Hansard source

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  Q I was struck, in the impact assessments, by the statements that a number of the costs, but particularly more the benefits, or potential benefits, of these measures cannot currently be quantified. There are, of course, well-advertised problems with UK labour market statistics at the moment. Realistically, what more could the Government do in respect of future measures to better capture the full range of costs and benefits associated with employment law? Nye Cominetti: You are right: labour market statistics are not currently in a good place. The Office for National Statistics’ labour force survey is in the doldrums in terms of response rates; so if you wanted to increase the resources going into that, I would welcome that, as a researcher. Realistically, many of these knock-on benefits are incredibly hard to estimate. Personally, I think we have to accept a world where we say, we know that workers will benefit in terms of wellbeing from some of these measures. I do not think you need to put a monetary value on that to say it is worth doing, personally, but I know that is not necessarily the way that Government Departments think about these things. In terms of the costs—businesses will be saying, “If you do this measure, I will have to reduce hiring by this much”—I think we could be moving from relying on what businesses say. I know that many businesses will be engaging with these processes in good faith, but the history, for example with the minimum wage, is for businesses to say, “If you raise this cost there will be dire consequences: job losses will look like x and y,” and in the end that does not turn out to happen because businesses find ways to adapt. That does not mean that will happen this time—there is no guarantee that you can keep pulling off the same trick of raising labour costs and not triggering an impact on employment—but looking for evidence on what has actually happened in response to similar changes in the past or in other countries, rather than relying on what businesses say, might be a better guide. But that might be controversial.

• 28 Nov 2024 · Employment Rights Bill (Third sitting) · Hansard source

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  Q For context in respect of a previous question, the record shows that “re-unionisation of the economy” was language used in a question by the shadow Minister, not in an answer from a witness. The Bill covers part of the “Make Work Pay” agenda. Are there other measures in the “Make Work Pay” document published earlier this year that should be included in the Bill? Liron Velleman: The Bill clearly represents a great step forward in improving workers’ rights. For some of our members, it is in some ways a Bill for employees’ rights, rather than an employment rights Bill. Our members in the self-employed sector are looking for rights and protections to reflect the nature of the work that they do. In the “Next Steps to Make Work Pay” document, there are clear suggestions that there will be greater rights and protections for self-employed members, but that is a priority that we would like to see as part of the Bill, to fully grasp the current employment landscape in this country. There is also a point around the consultation on new surveillance technology in the workplace. Clearly, technology in the workplace is one of the biggest benefits to lots of our members and to businesses, but it is also one of the biggest challenges when we think about the new world of work. Making sure that workers understand and are trained on, and can get to grips with, technology in the workplace, surveillance or otherwise, is vital to ensuring that they have the best rights and protections at work. Those two things would be our strong priorities for the Bill. Joanne Cairns: For us, one of the key areas is statutory sick pay. The removal of the three waiting days and the lower earnings limit is extremely important and will make a massive difference to a lot of low-paid workers. However, the Government committed to strengthening SSP, and we would like the level of SSP to be looked at. It is well documented that the current level of SSP is below what people can afford to live on. If you earn the national living wage, you earn only around a quarter of your salary when receiving SSP, which has a significant impact on low-paid workers. That said, the removal of the three waiting days is extremely important and will make a big difference. In respect of the right to guaranteed hours, which we warmly welcome, it is very important that the way it is implemented covers as many workers as possible. The commitment from the Government was that everyone would have the right to a contract that reflects the hours they normally work. We are concerned about the inclusion of the term “low hours” in the “Next Steps” document, which we feel could have the unintended consequences of making the right apply less widely than it should, and potentially undermining its effectiveness.

• 26 Nov 2024 · Employment Rights Bill (Second sitting) · Hansard source

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  Do you see opportunities for marrying the levelling up of employment standards with productivity gains in construction? Alasdair Reisner: In terms of industry productivity, there is a lot to do, but one of the biggest drivers will be people being happy and healthy at work, and being provided with appropriate training that drives their competence to deliver. So yes, I think there is something there. Ultimately, there are big challenges that sit outside the employment space. At the minute, we are not even measuring productivity properly. Knowing whether we are improving starts with having the first clue about what we are supposed to be measuring. I should say that there is good work going on in that space at the moment.

• 26 Nov 2024 · Employment Rights Bill (Second sitting) · Hansard source

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  I again refer to my declaration in the Register of Members’ Financial Interests and my membership of the GMB and Unite trade unions.

• 26 Nov 2024 · Employment Rights Bill (Second sitting) · Hansard source

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  Q I want to ask you about the international dimension; I am thinking about manufacturing businesses. Do you have sites in other countries? Mondelēz Cadbury in south Birmingham comes to mind. Among your members that have exposure to different systems of employment law and labour market regulation, have you received any feedback on the Bill that is informed by a knowledge of different systems and practice? Jim Bligh: I would be happy to write to you with more details. We have not had direct feedback from members. Very often, the businesses that we work with in the UK, whether large or small, are the UK arm—they will operate their HR and legal policies and all the rest of it in and from the UK for the UK market. To go back to something I said earlier, flexible labour markets are the hallmark of growing economies and of growing productive food and drink manufacturing sectors around the world. Global businesses would say that the UK has done really well on that front in recent years, so would not want to go any further backwards. I am happy to write to the Committee after this with more information about international examples. Jamie Cater: Anecdotally, some concern has been expressed by our members about the competitiveness of the UK when it comes to manufacturing and the measures in the Bill. There is a concern from member companies that might be headquartered elsewhere or have significant operations in countries outside the UK that it is becoming harder, more expensive and more challenging to employ people in the UK. The Government have done a lot of very welcome stuff in developing an industrial strategy that gives a lot more certainty and confidence for lots of businesses to invest generally in operations in the UK, but when we think about the total cost of the Bill and its administrative and regulatory impacts, there is a bit of concern that it is becoming less attractive to employ people in the UK versus elsewhere. We are increasingly having conversations with members about that.

• 26 Nov 2024 · Employment Rights Bill (Second sitting) · Hansard source

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  Q I think it is common ground that there are productivity challenges in construction that are particular to the industry, as well as a historical fragmentation of employment relationships. Do you see any opportunities for marrying the levelling up of employment standards with productivity gains? The industry has done some very important work on mental health, and I want to put on the record my appreciation of CECA’s positive role in supporting it. Alasdair Reisner: That is very kind. I was not expecting that at all. It is something that we are extraordinarily passionate about. We have done a lot of work on mental wellbeing, which I think is also incredibly relevant to this Committee, because we are looking at a culture in the workplace that drives mental health. Unfortunately, as an industry, we have really poor mental wellbeing issues, particularly for those at the very bottom end of the skills levels. That is our problem, and we need to do more on that. Sorry, I cannot remember the specifics of your first question.

• 26 Nov 2024 · Employment Rights Bill (First sitting) · Hansard source

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  I draw people’s attention to my declarations in the Register of Members’ Financial Interests. I am also a member of the Unite and GMB trade unions.

• 26 Nov 2024 · Employment Rights Bill (First sitting) · Hansard source

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  Q We heard quite a balanced account from the previous panel; there were measures in the Bill that they welcomed, alongside measures that they wanted to see changes to. Mr Hallas, I notice that you have said that gaps in employment law are becoming an increasing challenge. So I want to ask the same question to both of you: are there individual measures in the Bill that you welcome and, if so, what are they? Dom Hallas: When I talked about employment law in that context, it was as part of a broader range of work we do with what we call platform businesses. They might be traditionally known as gig economy platforms, sharing economy platforms or online marketplaces that have two sides—someone who wants to sell something and someone wants to buy something, whether that is services or goods. The gaps in law that exist there are an increasing problem, because many of these platforms want to be able to offer support to the people who leverage them, but they are not able to do so because of the restrictive nature of employment law. The challenge at the moment is that the Bill does not necessarily address that. There is clearly a way of potentially having further conversations on that. Obviously, some of that is being discussed down the line, including whether there is a single status for workers. We are not sure whether that is exactly the right approach, but there is a conversation to be had with Government about what is the right approach. In the meantime, what we have is a structure built by court case, which I do not think is helpful for anyone concerned. It is frustrating for a number of unions and workers’ rights organisations that have been campaigning on this issue, but also for a wide variety of platforms—they are not the very biggest ones that are taking things all the way to court. They would prefer some clarity so that they could potentially offer additional benefits to people who leverage their platforms. That is the first thing to say. A significant portion of the Bill is made up of things that we either have no view on or that, broadly speaking, would be fine. The reality is that I am not going to sit here and say that it is going to be catastrophic for the tech start-up community. In truth, it is not going to be. David Hale: There are steps in the Bill on strengthening paternity and maternity protection, and that is one of the reasons why I talk about splitting the Bill up. Those seem like good things that probably have a positive impact on the workforce as a whole. As I said, because of the overwhelm, we are still going through the detail, but those seem like good measures. Would it not be better to focus on good measures, and things where the risks, costs and trade-offs are understood, and to make a decision to proceed positively with those? Compared to the last speakers, we are less likely to have a particular view on the trade union aspects of the legislation. On the trade union aspects, it is fairly well understood what the measures are and what their impact will be—that is decision-ready. The bits that are not decision-ready are the proposals around unfair dismissal and zero-hours contracts. The bit that could be decision-ready but is not is probably around SSP and the question of a rebate.

• 18 Nov 2024 · Bus Funding · Hansard source

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  Given that the Conservative party’s record was a 20% cut in the bus service operators grant, a 40p-in-the-pound cut in local bus funding, and 12,000 bus services cut between 2010 and 2023—a fall of more than half—does my right hon. Friend agree that some of what we have heard today is a bit rich?

• 11 Nov 2024 · Rail Performance · Hansard source

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  The shadow Secretary of State said that we should pay attention to performance statistics. The figures that I have obtained from the Department show that over the past seven years, there was a 35% increase in temporary and emergency speed restrictions on the network. The Secretary of State has a difficult inheritance, but can she set out for us the work that she is doing to refocus the industry on the hard graft of understanding, maintaining and improving our crumbling infrastructure?

• 6 Nov 2024 · Small Boat Crossings · Hansard source

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  Given that only 3% of people who arrived by small boats between 2018 and June 2024 have been returned, a period of reflection from the Conservative party on this issue would be welcome. Does the Minister agree that a Government who have dispensed with gimmicks and who focus on the day job are delivering that progress on returns?

• 5 Nov 2024 · Income Tax (Charge) · Hansard source

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  I draw the House’s attentions to my declarations in the Register of Members’ Financial Interests. As we approach Remembrance weekend, I would like to draw attention in this health debate to the excellent work that the Royal Centre for Defence Medicine does in Birmingham. In July, the people of Birmingham Northfield voted for change. It was a vote for economic stability and investment in public services after 14 years of chaos, 14 years of austerity, and 14 years of running down our schools and hospitals. This Budget is delivering that change. I welcome the biggest increase in NHS funding in 20 years, linked to service improvements. We are a young city, but one in 10 people in Birmingham are on an NHS waiting list. Some of my constituents have been waiting for years for lifesaving treatments; some of them waited for too long. This is the sort of investment that will make a difference that people can feel, and that is a credit to the Ministers on the Front Bench today. The investment in school buildings and equipment is welcome. It is especially important for the projects to rebuild Green Meadow primary school and King Edward VI Balaam Wood academy, which were committed to under the school rebuilding programme, but which face rising construction costs. I also welcome the wider investment in education, particularly in SEND and further education. Other hon. Members have mentioned the important commitments that have been made to the West Midlands combined authority. That is excellent news for the region as a whole and money that can be invested in better housing and better transport services, alongside the additional money for social care and road maintenance in local government. I look forward to seeing Birmingham’s allocation, ahead of a tough local government budget-setting process next year. As a trade union official, I was proud to represent care and NHS workers, but I was ashamed of the conditions in which they had to work for too long. I feel that same sense of shame at the state to which the Conservative party reduced our public services. This is a Budget for investment in health and social care. It turns the page on years of failure and it sets the long-term certainty that businesses need. I hope that it will be carried overwhelmingly tomorrow.

• 5 Nov 2024 · Income Tax (Charge) · Hansard source

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  Will the hon. Lady give way?

• 4 Nov 2024 · Newport Chartist Commemorations: Strengthening Democracy · Hansard source

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  I am grateful to my hon. Friend for securing this debate. With her permission, I would also like to commemorate for the record the events in Birmingham in 1839, when reaction and the gathering radicalism that first found expression in the Birmingham Political Union—which did so much to shape the “People’s Charter”—combined and ignited into the Bull Ring riots, which led to soldiers patrolling the streets as far south as my constituency, such was the fear that the contagion would spread. One hundred and eight-five years later, when people are still protesting and dying for their political rights from Ukraine to Iran, does she agree that the spirit that motivated Chartism remains living, immediate and essential?

• 4 Nov 2024 · SEND System: Effectiveness · Hansard source

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  24. What recent assessment she has made of the effectiveness of the system for supporting children with special educational needs and disabilities.

• 4 Nov 2024 · SEND System: Effectiveness · Hansard source

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  At the recent SEND surgery that I organised with SEND Socials Birmingham, one message came through time and again: different public bodies are not working together as the Children and Families Act 2014 intended, and this is contributing to long delays and distress. Will the Minister agree to receive representations from young people and families in south Birmingham, so that their negative experiences can at least contribute to the important work of reforming the SEND system?