Andrew Gwynne MP: speeches

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Speeches

30 Jan 2025 · Tobacco and Vapes Bill (Sixteenth sitting) · Hansard source
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The clause currently provides that the Bill may be cited as the Tobacco and Vapes Act 2024 once passed. As it is now 2025, the short title will be updated when the Bill, as amended in Committee, is printed to refer to 2025 rather than 2024. Question put and agreed to. Clause 171 accordingly ordered to stand part of the Bill. Question proposed, That the Chair do report the Bill, as amended, to the House.
30 Jan 2025 · Tobacco and Vapes Bill (Sixteenth sitting) · Hansard source
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This clause outlines the territorial extent of the Bill: part 1 applies to England and Wales, part 2 to Scotland, part 3 to Northern Ireland, and parts 4 to 6 and 8 to the entirety of the United Kingdom. Part 7 contains only amendments to existing legislation, and therefore, by virtue of subsection (1), its extent does not need to be explicitly stated. This is a standard clause that helps the measures in the Bill to function effectively; I therefore commend it to the Committee.
30 Jan 2025 · Tobacco and Vapes Bill (Sixteenth sitting) · Hansard source
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And so say all of us. The last thanks I want to give are to my private secretary and my team of officials from the Department of Health and Social Care, because they are the ones who have been up late most days, ensuring that the packs are ready for me and the Government Whip, that I am well briefed and that I have the time to question them about the various clauses. I am really grateful to them. We have had a lot of good, detailed scrutiny. Most of the debates have been good natured, and it has shown the House of Commons at its best. To echo the hon. Member for Winchester, this is a landmark Bill. It will be the single most important piece of public health legislation for a generation, and we are all part of that. We have made history.
30 Jan 2025 · Tobacco and Vapes Bill (Sixteenth sitting) · Hansard source
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I am not sure whether it is because of selective amnesia, or whether the shadow Minister has had a really good lunch, but she seems to have entirely forgotten our previous debates. We have debated the licensing regime at length, and I made it perfectly clear to the whole Committee that Scotland is doing its own thing because it believes that that works well for Scotland, but that England, Wales and Northern Ireland would be moving in lockstep on this. If she was not aware then, she should be now.
30 Jan 2025 · Tobacco and Vapes Bill (Sixteenth sitting) · Hansard source
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rose —
30 Jan 2025 · Tobacco and Vapes Bill (Sixteenth sitting) · Hansard source
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It was just three letters.
30 Jan 2025 · Tobacco and Vapes Bill (Sixteenth sitting) · Hansard source
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Well, if we have not heard from ChatGPT, we have certainly had, through the Institute of Economic Affairs, a bit of ChatSHT.
30 Jan 2025 · Tobacco and Vapes Bill (Sixteenth sitting) · Hansard source
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I take it back, Mr Pritchard—only because the hon. Member for Windsor is not here.
30 Jan 2025 · Tobacco and Vapes Bill (Sixteenth sitting) · Hansard source
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The clauses concern powers for relevant Ministers to make consequential amendments and the procedure for making regulations under the Bill. Clause 161 provides the Secretary of State with the power to make regulations that are consequential on the Bill. Clause 162 confers a power on Scottish Ministers to make provisions that are consequential on part 2 of the Bill, as well as clauses 142 to 146 and schedule 18. Clause 163 confers a power on Welsh Ministers to make provisions that are consequential on part 1 of the Bill, as well as clauses 147 to 152 and schedule 19, provided they are within their legislative competence. Clause 164 confers a power on the Department of Health in Northern Ireland to make provisions that are consequential on part 3 of the Bill, as well as clauses 153 to 157 and schedule 20. Those regulations may amend, repeal or revoke any legislation passed before or in the same Session of Parliament as the Bill, as well as any provision made by the Bill itself. Regulations may amend primary as well as secondary legislation. During the development of the Bill, every effort was made to identify any consequential amendments that are required and to make provision for them on the face of the Bill. However, as the Bill brings together legislation that has been made over the last century, there is a small likelihood that further consequential amendments may be required to enable it to function effectively. It is therefore prudent that powers are conferred on the relevant Minister to make such changes via secondary legislation. Any regulations amending primary legislation will be subject to the affirmative procedure, in line with guidance from the Delegated Powers and Regulatory Reform Committee. Clause 165 provides that any regulations made under the Bill, except for regulations made under clauses 168 to 170, may make consequential, supplementary, incidental, transitional or saving provision. It also provides that such regulations may make different provision for different purposes and for different parts of the United Kingdom. For example, in relation to regulations made under the powers in part 5, on registration requirements for products, different provision may be needed for Great Britain and Northern Ireland, to take account of their pre-existing legislative frameworks. Clause 166 provides for the procedures for making regulations under the Bill. Regulations made by the Secretary of State or Welsh Ministers are to be made by statutory instruments, regulations made by Scottish Ministers are to be made by Scottish statutory instruments and regulations made by the Department of Health in Northern Ireland are to be made by statutory rules. The clause also sets out in one place what is meant by the affirmative resolution procedure and negative resolution procedure for making regulations. Defining these terms is a drafting practice, and this is a standard clause that enables the measures in the Bill and regulations made under it to function effectively. I therefore commend the clauses to the Committee. Question put and agreed to. Clause 161 accordingly ordered to stand part of the Bill. Clauses 162 to 166 ordered to stand part of the Bill. Clause 167 Extent Question proposed, That the clause stand part of the Bill.
30 Jan 2025 · Tobacco and Vapes Bill (Sixteenth sitting) · Hansard source
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The Bill is and will be, as an Act of Parliament, in full accordance with our international obligations. We will have a smoke-free United Kingdom, and the measures appertaining to Northern Ireland fit within our international and domestic obligations under the Windsor framework. Question put and agreed to. Clause 167 accordingly ordered to stand part of the Bill. Clause 168 Commencement: Parts 1 to 4
30 Jan 2025 · Tobacco and Vapes Bill (Sixteenth sitting) · Hansard source
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I am almost like a standing article now for LADbible. I am not sure whether that makes me a social media influencer—about which we have heard a lot during the course of the debate—or just a media tart. My hon. Friend is absolutely right that it was not one, two or three but four features we got out of LADbible —and who knows; we might get a fifth. I sincerely thank the Clerks, the Hansard staff and the Doorkeepers. We do not thank them enough for the work that they do to keep Committees like this going, and I want to place that on the record.
30 Jan 2025 · Tobacco and Vapes Bill (Sixteenth sitting) · Hansard source
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I beg to move amendment 16, in clause 170, page 122, line 3, at end insert— “(za) sections 19 to 22 and Schedule 3 and 4 (licensing of retail sales of tobacco products etc in Wales);” This amendment confers power on the Welsh Ministers to make transitional or saving provision in connection with the commencement of certain provisions that they have power to bring into force by order under clause 168(5).
30 Jan 2025 · Tobacco and Vapes Bill (Sixteenth sitting) · Hansard source
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This is a remarkable moment in parliamentary history, because we have got the Tobacco and Vapes Bill through Committee. I thank you, Mr Pritchard, as well as Sir Roger, Sir Mark and Mr Dowd, for your diligent chairing. Please pass on the whole Committee’s appreciation for the way in which you have kept us going throughout. I thank all Members on both sides of the Committee for the role that they have played, particularly as many are new Members. It has been a baptism of fire for some of them, but I hope that they have found the experience of amending, scrutinising and debating a really important piece of legislation to be of benefit. New Members should be assured that their Whips have already noted that this will be their first Committee of many.
30 Jan 2025 · Tobacco and Vapes Bill (Sixteenth sitting) · Hansard source
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Of course that has been considered. It is the responsibility of the United Kingdom Government to ensure that any legislation appertaining to Northern Ireland is compatible with the Windsor framework—that is clear. In drafting the Bill, the Government have taken into account all our domestic and international obligations. It has been put together following full consultation with Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland, and we intend it to be United Kingdom-wide legislation for a smoke-free UK, in accordance with our international obligations.
30 Jan 2025 · Tobacco and Vapes Bill (Sixteenth sitting) · Hansard source
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I now know more about the equine sector than I ever wanted to. We have got to the accidental squirting of horse milk into one’s mouth, but of course, we started the Committee with a whole tale about getting one’s hoof trimmed—which, I have to say, Mr Pritchard, has a whole other meaning in Manchester.
30 Jan 2025 · Tobacco and Vapes Bill (Sixteenth sitting) · Hansard source
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It is good to be back after a short lunch break, Mr Pritchard; I trust Members are well nourished ahead of this afternoon’s sitting. I am grateful to the shadow Minister for this set of amendments. They would require the Government to publish and consult on draft regulations relating to the licensing scheme in England, as set out in clauses 16 to 18 and schedules 1 and 2. The new clause stipulates that those regulations must be published within two months of Royal Assent of the Bill, and that a report on a mandated call for evidence, including a response to the Business and Trade Committee, must be laid before both Houses six months after Royal Assent. I am sympathetic to the shadow Minister’s desire to move swiftly in this space. It is certainly my intention and the intention of the Government to move at pace—like the clappers, in supersonic fashion—in a whole range of areas. However, as with similar amendments relating to the registration scheme, we believe that new clause 6 would place an unreasonable and impractical constraint on Government. The reality is that to publish the regulations within two months of Royal Assent is simply not feasible, and the new clause does not reflect the processes and stages required for the development of proportionate, appropriate and well-considered regulations. Development of secondary legislation takes time, and the arbitrary timescales proposed would not enable effective policy development. Forcing the Government to proceed with producing new legislation at the pace that the shadow Minister seeks to stipulate would open the Government up to the risk of creating flawed policy. Creating flawed policy carries clear risks, not least the potential for the Government’s work to be legally challenged, thereby delaying measures either for a further period of time or indeed for good. The Bill imposes on the Secretary of State a statutory obligation to consult ahead of the introduction of any regulations. Through that process, we will be able to carefully consider views from stakeholders, including the retail sector, in order to build a licensing scheme that supports legitimate businesses while cracking down on rogue retailers. Finally, to echo points that I have already made, the Bill has been developed in collaboration with colleagues across the United Kingdom, and such close working and close alignment will continue through the development of all secondary legislation. My concern about new clause 6 is that it risks creating inconsistencies with licensing regimes elsewhere, particularly in Wales and Northern Ireland. We are approaching this together, and that is why I ask the shadow Minister to withdraw the new clause.
30 Jan 2025 · Tobacco and Vapes Bill (Sixteenth sitting) · Hansard source
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Clause 170 provides powers for Ministers in each of the devolved nations to make transitional and saving provisions. Transitional provisions address how existing legislation will be phased out or replaced by new legislation. Saving provisions preserve certain rights, obligations or legal consequences from existing statute. The power to make transitional and saving provisions is given to Ministers in each devolved Government to aid the implementation of specific measures in the Bill within their legislatures. This is a standard provision that enables measures in the Bill to function effectively. Government amendment 16 is being made at the request of the Welsh Government. This technical amendment provides powers to the Welsh Ministers to make transitional or saving provisions in connection with the commencement of provisions relating to the retail licensing of products in Wales. As the Welsh Ministers have the power to commence those provisions by order, it is appropriate that they have the power to make transitional or saving provisions in connection with their commencement. That aligns with the approach taken throughout the Bill whereby such powers are given to the relevant Minister responsible for their commencement. For that reason, I encourage the Committee to support Government amendment 16. Amendment 16 agreed to. Clause 170, as amended, ordered to stand part of the Bill. Clause 171 Short title Question proposed, That the clause stand part of the Bill.
30 Jan 2025 · Tobacco and Vapes Bill (Sixteenth sitting) · Hansard source
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Again, I am grateful to the shadow Minister for bringing this important discussion to the Committee. The provision would regulate high-capacity count vaping devices, which we understand to mean so-called “big puff vapes”, or devices that provide more than 600 puffs, by ensuring that the Secretary of State regulates the amount of liquid in a tank and ensures that the refill container cannot be connected to the vape device, creating more liquid and thus more puffs. Although I empathise with what the shadow Minister is trying to do, the Bill already provides powers that allow us to regulate for the size of a tank or refill container and the amount of liquid that can be included, as well as powers to standardise vapes and to further restrict liquid availability. In addition, the Bill contains powers that allow us to regulate the amount of nicotine in a puff, so as to restrict not only the amount of nicotine in the tank, but the amount of nicotine that can be emitted in the vapour. We have a duty to consult on ways in which vapes and vape devices can be standardised before we make regulations. This will ensure that the right decisions are taken, based on evidence, which will reduce the legal risk to Government from any future litigation. Moreover, many so-called big puff vapes currently on the market will be caught by the upcoming ban on single-use vapes, which will be led by the Department for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs and comes into force on 1 June, because most of them are disposable products and do not have replaceable coils. It is for these reasons that I ask the shadow Minister to withdraw her new clause.
30 Jan 2025 · Tobacco and Vapes Bill (Sixteenth sitting) · Hansard source
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I beg to move amendment 15, in clause 168, page 121, line 1, after “force” insert “(so far as not in force by virtue of subsection (2))”. Clause 168(2) brings the regulation making powers under Part 1 into force on royal assent. This amendment indicates that the Welsh Ministers’ power to bring certain provisions into force is subject to that and is intended to ensure consistency with the drafting in clause 168(4).
30 Jan 2025 · Tobacco and Vapes Bill (Sixteenth sitting) · Hansard source
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I am grateful to my hon. Friend for her intervention. Perhaps it shows that history does matter and we can learn from it. Never mind Henry VIII powers: perhaps when we bring forward the regulations, we will have papal powers to go further.
30 Jan 2025 · Tobacco and Vapes Bill (Sixteenth sitting) · Hansard source
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We are doing this together.
30 Jan 2025 · Tobacco and Vapes Bill (Sixteenth sitting) · Hansard source
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It is our intention that the reports will be published in accordance with the mechanisms with which they are published now, with the frequency that they are now published. Therefore, we do not need this new obligation on the Secretary of State.
30 Jan 2025 · Tobacco and Vapes Bill (Sixteenth sitting) · Hansard source
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I am grateful to the shadow Minister for bringing this discussion before the Committee today. New clause 8 would require the Government to produce annual reports on the scale of the illegal sale and availability of tobacco and vaping products and the impact on public health and safety. I am sympathetic to the hon. Lady’s aim to ensure that the benefit and progress made as a result of our measures is known and seen by the public. However, this new clause is not needed, given that the Government already publish data on the illicit tobacco market and we will be doing the same for vapes following the introduction of the new vaping products duty. On tobacco, His Majesty’s Revenue and Customs already regularly provides data and reports on various aspects of the illicit trade. For example, HMRC periodically publishes the tobacco tax gap report, which estimates the difference between the theoretical duty liability and the actual amount of tobacco duty collected by HMRC. That report also estimates the market share of illicit tobacco. HMRC also publishes the annual outputs for tackling tobacco smuggling, which include figures on tobacco seizures, including the number of criminal prosecutions and amount of civil penalties issued. National Trading Standards, too, provides public reports and updates related specifically to enforcement activity, which include the illegal sale and importation of vapes and related products. Additionally, HMRC intends, following the introduction of the vaping products duty, to publish annual estimates of the size of the illicit market, using tax gap data as well as data on activity targeting vaping duty fraud, such as the number of seizures. It is important that enforcement agencies produce the estimates and figures on enforcement activity, given that that is their area of expertise. An annual report from the Secretary of State would only duplicate that information. For that reason, I ask the hon. Lady to withdraw the new clause.
30 Jan 2025 · Tobacco and Vapes Bill (Fifteenth sitting) · Hansard source
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I am grateful to my hon. Friend the Member for City of Durham for tabling the new clause, because it allows us to have a debate about a really important matter. As has been discussed, the new clause would require the Secretary of State for Health and Social Care to consult and report on a scheme to regulate and to raise funds from the prices and profits of tobacco manufacturers and importers. Duty on tobacco raises around £8.8 billion a year. The Government’s preferred approach is to continue with a proven and effective model of dealing with tobacco products through increases in tobacco excise and through duties. This generates finances that can support a full range of public services, including public health and the NHS, as well as smoking cessation services. We believe the proposed scheme would be complex to implement and might take several years to materialise. Alongside the Bill, we are taking strong action to reduce the affordability of tobacco, which is an effective measure to trigger smoking cessation. The United Kingdom already has some of the highest tobacco taxes in the world. The World Health Organisation recommends that total taxes on tobacco are at least 75% of the retail price on typical cigarettes. The United Kingdom comfortably meets this target, with taxes at around 80% of selling price. As announced at the autumn Budget 2024, duty rates on all tobacco products were increased in line with the tobacco duty escalator by 2% above retail price index inflation. The duty rate on hand-rolling tobacco was increased by a third of 10%, to 12% above RPI inflation, to reduce the gap with duty on cigarettes. Those changes came into effect on 30 October 2024. Cigarettes are also subject to minimum excise tax, which sets a minimum amount of duty collected on a pack of cigarettes. That discourages manufacturers from selling cheap cigarettes, as it reduces the profitability of cigarettes sold at or below minimum excise tax trigger prices. The new minimum excise tax is £8.93 for a pack of 20, and it applies to cigarettes sold at or below £13.59 for a pack of 20. We are still going further on tobacco tax. As announced in the autumn Budget, there will be an additional one-off increase for all tobacco duties. That will come into force on 1 October 2026, when the vaping duty comes into effect. From a financial perspective, that will maintain the incentive for smokers to switch to vaping once the new excise duty on vaping products comes into force. On one last technical note, His Majesty’s Treasury can consult on tobacco taxation and fiscal policy at any time, so that does not need to be set out in the Bill. For those reasons, I ask my hon. Friend the Member for City of Durham to withdraw her new clause.
30 Jan 2025 · Tobacco and Vapes Bill (Fifteenth sitting) · Hansard source
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I reassure the shadow Minister that on some of these things I am going to go supersonic.

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